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M.A.Jones: My position on Tibetan issue

12 5月

The whole disucussion thread is introduced to me by netizen Willy, originally from a closed PBS discussion forum with title In response to Tony Martin (in relation to the Tibet issue). That’s a very long thread and below is excerpt of Jones’ summary on his position. Although there is only statements below, you can easily find more “empirically verifiable research data of both a quantitative and qualitative nature” in the thread.

I agree the overall frame of his position but disagree on several points. In general, I think that’s a good starter for Tibetan issue.

 BTW, I can’t contact M.A.Jones at the moment. So the post is here w/o his permission.

===============================================================

Let me summarise my overall position on the Tibetan issue, so as to help those of you who are interested in producing a rebuttal. My arguments are as follows:

1. Human rights abuses have and continue to occur in Tibet, but the extent of these abuses has been and continues to be greatly exaggerated by the Tibetan Government in Exile and by its Western supporters in the so-called “pro-Tibet lobby”.

2. The human rights conditions and overall living standards of the majority of Tibetans has been and continues to improve under Chinese rule, and this has been the case since the Deng reforms were first introduced.

3. Most ill-feelings towards the Han Chinese and towards Chinese rule reflect the collective memory of the Cultural Revolution experience. The strength of these feelings is now beginning to fade as more and more Tibetans are drawn into the middle class, and their lives made more comfortable. Tibetans are thus becoming increasingly divided on their attitudes towards Chinese rule, and their feelings more complex and open to flux.

4. Tibetan culture is not, contrary to the propaganda of the pro-Tibet lobby, in any danger of disappearing. Quite the opposite in fact – Tibet, over the past few decades, has been and continues to experience a cultural renaissance, spurred on partly by financial grants and encouragement from Beijing, and partly through the initiative of ethnic Tibetans themselves, as they seize on the opportunities that increasing tourism brings to share their cultural life in newly commodified forms.

5. Rather than being “Sinocised” urban Tibet is being Westernised. Tibet’s transition from feudalism to modernity has been a painful one, but one that many Tibetans are now embracing as they see the benefits filtering through. Young Tibetans are thus becoming increasingly less interested in religious and independence issues as they discover and embrace more de-sublimated forms of pleasure through shopping, the internet, discos, kareoke bars, and, for the smaller but growing number of wealthier bougeois individuals among them (most of whom are drawn, not surprisingly, from the families of religious tulkas) the joys of both domestic and international travel and study.

6. The traditional political activities of organised Tibetan religious intitutions throughout the TAR have been restrained, and continue to be restrained (often brutally) under Chinese governance, but generally speaking lamaism is thriving – not only throughout the TAR, but also throughout greater China (even in Beijing) and internationally too for that matter. Considerable religious freedom then, despite claims to the contrary, exists in Tibet.

7. The Tibetan Government in Exile mislead the world about the true nature of the majority of those Tibetans who journey to Dharmasala each year – most are not refugees, but religious pilgrims. The Tibetan Government in Exile has both financial and political incentives to do so.

8. The Tibetan Government in Exile and its Western supporters in the pro-Tibet lobby are funded mostly by those whose economic and political interests view China’s rise as a threat. The U.S. State Department is the major contributor of funds to both the Government in Exile and to the Tibet lobby. Considerable funds are also raised through commercial activities, like international Dalai Lama lecture tours, and through the sale of Buddhist kitsch to Western New Age consumers.

9. Pro-Tibetan lobby groups essentially parade as “non-profit” human rights organisations, registering themselves as charities to encourage businesses and individuals to make tax-deductible donations – which essentially means that they are a drain on the public purse. They also have a vested interest in grossly exaggerating their claims in order to excite the sympathies of the public so that they can attract public donations and political support.

10. That by failing to present a fair and more realistic picture of what is happening in Tibet, both the self-proclaimed Tibetan Government in Exile and their supporters actually cause far more harm than good to the plight of the Tibetan people, especially for those living within the TAR. Their propaganda and support encourages hardliners within the ethnic Tibetan community living within the TAR to promote resistance and separatism, which in turn adds to the anxieties and security concerns of those hardliners within the Chinese ruling elite, who then in turn respond by introducing and enforcing more strictly those public security laws that restrict politico-religious activities – which as I said earlier, often do in fact result in brutal punishments by over-zealous enforcers. Such instances, not surprisingly then, tend to occur in waves, rather than on a regular day to day basis.

11. The main long-term political goal of the former ruling theocratic elite, now based in Dharmasala, is to regain their political control of Tibet. Their international campaign against China therefore, rather ironically, does more harm to their own cause than good, and only decreases their likelihood of ever being able to cut a deal with Beijing. The watered down goal of the Dalai Lama now, is the establishment of self-government for the TAR whilst remaining a part of China – in the same way that Hong Kong operates. Ironically, this is EXACTLY what China originally offered the Tibetan ruling elite, but by rejecting the offer in favour of supporting a separatist movement for full independence, they have now lost out completely. Easily the single biggest political mistake of the Dalai Lama’s career – as A. Tom Grunfeld has convincingly pointed out.

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5条评论

Posted by 于 五月 12, 2008 in 雪狮与龙, 历史存档, 每日杂谈

 

5 responses to “M.A.Jones: My position on Tibetan issue

  1. sol

    五月 12, 2008 at 11:47 上午

    MA Jones的这篇长贴早前读到过,他写贴引文的风格好像是写academic paper,可能与他教书的职业有关。另外,他好像是为马克思主义信仰者,这也许是他对中国政府显得比较温和的原因。就我的观察,在西藏问题上,网上对中国政府态度较为平和的“老外”,一般是这样三类,一是有华裔背景,二是对马克思主义有好感,或是三,在中国生活学习过一段时间。

    David,你说对MA Jones的观点还是有几个不同意的地方,如果有时间,不知可不可以把你的想法写出来,我挺想了解的。当然,先以你的工作生活为重,等有时间再看可不可以详述。

     
  2. procrastinator

    五月 27, 2008 at 9:32 上午

    Wow…I am really surprised!

     
  3. 雪红雪白

    七月 31, 2008 at 5:00 下午

    MAJ由澳洲到中国后,一度曾在深圳、江苏淮安教书,似乎也呆过上海财大。那些时日他不断在各大热门英文论坛上发帖为北京政权辩护,在大多网站成了其他网友的笑柄,例如在北京鸭上。
    原来他给人的印象只是个不得志的外教,以教英语在中国糊口和泡妞,逃避本国的生存竞争,但他在 China Daily 上的留言一经披露后,令人刮目相看。
    在那一则留言中,他建议中国日报把那些对中国不友好的贴子删除,并封杀作者。
    不知道他的自荐有没有解决他的就业问题,也许他已经被特聘亦未可知。
    在中国拥有越来越多硬通货的今天,收到越来越多MAJ之流的简历不应令人惊讶吧。不必太当回事了。

     
  4. davidpeng

    七月 31, 2008 at 10:10 下午

    @雪红雪白:

    在我看来,攻击MAJ的motive不如反驳他的言论来得有效。

    我基本同意他的结论:我不同意在西藏发生着“有意的大规模文化灭绝”。

    我同意讨论西藏问题有个很大的缺憾,没法对西藏的情况做独立的、客观的大规模调查。但是,这并不意味着就可以随意下结论。

    北京头疼的问题是,随着经济的发展,西藏社会有更多的资源投入到传统的藏传佛教中。从某种意义上来说,北京给西藏/藏区的输血,有一部分进入了这些寺庙的口袋,在某些时刻,用来反对政府。北京对此情况没有准备,哭笑不得。

     
  5. 雪红雪白

    八月 1, 2008 at 6:07 下午

    如果多看一些MAJ的言论就会看出在辞藻背后的空虚无力,基本不值一驳。我已经不会去浪费时间读他的东西了。
    更不同意他和你的结论。在西藏目前发生的就是“有意的、大规模的文化灭绝”。而且这是官方政策。
    为了不纠缠细节,可以这样想一下:这样的政策,是否有利于“统一”、有助于中国永远占有西藏呢?答案是肯定的。北京不笨,它绝不会“哭笑不得”,实行这样的有效政策,难道还需要它的对手去提醒它吗?

     

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M.A.Jones: My position on Tibetan issue

12 5月

The whole disucussion thread is introduced to me by netizen Willy, originally from a closed PBS discussion forum with title In response to Tony Martin (in relation to the Tibet issue). That’s a very long thread and below is excerpt of Jones’ summary on his position. Although there is only statements below, you can easily find more “empirically verifiable research data of both a quantitative and qualitative nature” in the thread.

I agree the overall frame of his position but disagree on several points. In general, I think that’s a good starter for Tibetan issue.

 BTW, I can’t contact M.A.Jones at the moment. So the post is here w/o his permission.

===============================================================

Let me summarise my overall position on the Tibetan issue, so as to help those of you who are interested in producing a rebuttal. My arguments are as follows:

1. Human rights abuses have and continue to occur in Tibet, but the extent of these abuses has been and continues to be greatly exaggerated by the Tibetan Government in Exile and by its Western supporters in the so-called “pro-Tibet lobby”.

2. The human rights conditions and overall living standards of the majority of Tibetans has been and continues to improve under Chinese rule, and this has been the case since the Deng reforms were first introduced.

3. Most ill-feelings towards the Han Chinese and towards Chinese rule reflect the collective memory of the Cultural Revolution experience. The strength of these feelings is now beginning to fade as more and more Tibetans are drawn into the middle class, and their lives made more comfortable. Tibetans are thus becoming increasingly divided on their attitudes towards Chinese rule, and their feelings more complex and open to flux.

4. Tibetan culture is not, contrary to the propaganda of the pro-Tibet lobby, in any danger of disappearing. Quite the opposite in fact – Tibet, over the past few decades, has been and continues to experience a cultural renaissance, spurred on partly by financial grants and encouragement from Beijing, and partly through the initiative of ethnic Tibetans themselves, as they seize on the opportunities that increasing tourism brings to share their cultural life in newly commodified forms.

5. Rather than being “Sinocised” urban Tibet is being Westernised. Tibet’s transition from feudalism to modernity has been a painful one, but one that many Tibetans are now embracing as they see the benefits filtering through. Young Tibetans are thus becoming increasingly less interested in religious and independence issues as they discover and embrace more de-sublimated forms of pleasure through shopping, the internet, discos, kareoke bars, and, for the smaller but growing number of wealthier bougeois individuals among them (most of whom are drawn, not surprisingly, from the families of religious tulkas) the joys of both domestic and international travel and study.

6. The traditional political activities of organised Tibetan religious intitutions throughout the TAR have been restrained, and continue to be restrained (often brutally) under Chinese governance, but generally speaking lamaism is thriving – not only throughout the TAR, but also throughout greater China (even in Beijing) and internationally too for that matter. Considerable religious freedom then, despite claims to the contrary, exists in Tibet.

7. The Tibetan Government in Exile mislead the world about the true nature of the majority of those Tibetans who journey to Dharmasala each year – most are not refugees, but religious pilgrims. The Tibetan Government in Exile has both financial and political incentives to do so.

8. The Tibetan Government in Exile and its Western supporters in the pro-Tibet lobby are funded mostly by those whose economic and political interests view China’s rise as a threat. The U.S. State Department is the major contributor of funds to both the Government in Exile and to the Tibet lobby. Considerable funds are also raised through commercial activities, like international Dalai Lama lecture tours, and through the sale of Buddhist kitsch to Western New Age consumers.

9. Pro-Tibetan lobby groups essentially parade as “non-profit” human rights organisations, registering themselves as charities to encourage businesses and individuals to make tax-deductible donations – which essentially means that they are a drain on the public purse. They also have a vested interest in grossly exaggerating their claims in order to excite the sympathies of the public so that they can attract public donations and political support.

10. That by failing to present a fair and more realistic picture of what is happening in Tibet, both the self-proclaimed Tibetan Government in Exile and their supporters actually cause far more harm than good to the plight of the Tibetan people, especially for those living within the TAR. Their propaganda and support encourages hardliners within the ethnic Tibetan community living within the TAR to promote resistance and separatism, which in turn adds to the anxieties and security concerns of those hardliners within the Chinese ruling elite, who then in turn respond by introducing and enforcing more strictly those public security laws that restrict politico-religious activities – which as I said earlier, often do in fact result in brutal punishments by over-zealous enforcers. Such instances, not surprisingly then, tend to occur in waves, rather than on a regular day to day basis.

11. The main long-term political goal of the former ruling theocratic elite, now based in Dharmasala, is to regain their political control of Tibet. Their international campaign against China therefore, rather ironically, does more harm to their own cause than good, and only decreases their likelihood of ever being able to cut a deal with Beijing. The watered down goal of the Dalai Lama now, is the establishment of self-government for the TAR whilst remaining a part of China – in the same way that Hong Kong operates. Ironically, this is EXACTLY what China originally offered the Tibetan ruling elite, but by rejecting the offer in favour of supporting a separatist movement for full independence, they have now lost out completely. Easily the single biggest political mistake of the Dalai Lama’s career – as A. Tom Grunfeld has convincingly pointed out.

 
5条评论

Posted by 于 五月 12, 2008 in 雪狮与龙, 历史存档, 每日杂谈

 

5 responses to “M.A.Jones: My position on Tibetan issue

  1. sol

    五月 12, 2008 at 11:47 上午

    MA Jones的这篇长贴早前读到过,他写贴引文的风格好像是写academic paper,可能与他教书的职业有关。另外,他好像是为马克思主义信仰者,这也许是他对中国政府显得比较温和的原因。就我的观察,在西藏问题上,网上对中国政府态度较为平和的“老外”,一般是这样三类,一是有华裔背景,二是对马克思主义有好感,或是三,在中国生活学习过一段时间。

    David,你说对MA Jones的观点还是有几个不同意的地方,如果有时间,不知可不可以把你的想法写出来,我挺想了解的。当然,先以你的工作生活为重,等有时间再看可不可以详述。

     
  2. procrastinator

    五月 27, 2008 at 9:32 上午

    Wow…I am really surprised!

     
  3. 雪红雪白

    七月 31, 2008 at 5:00 下午

    MAJ由澳洲到中国后,一度曾在深圳、江苏淮安教书,似乎也呆过上海财大。那些时日他不断在各大热门英文论坛上发帖为北京政权辩护,在大多网站成了其他网友的笑柄,例如在北京鸭上。
    原来他给人的印象只是个不得志的外教,以教英语在中国糊口和泡妞,逃避本国的生存竞争,但他在 China Daily 上的留言一经披露后,令人刮目相看。
    在那一则留言中,他建议中国日报把那些对中国不友好的贴子删除,并封杀作者。
    不知道他的自荐有没有解决他的就业问题,也许他已经被特聘亦未可知。
    在中国拥有越来越多硬通货的今天,收到越来越多MAJ之流的简历不应令人惊讶吧。不必太当回事了。

     
  4. davidpeng

    七月 31, 2008 at 10:10 下午

    @雪红雪白:

    在我看来,攻击MAJ的motive不如反驳他的言论来得有效。

    我基本同意他的结论:我不同意在西藏发生着“有意的大规模文化灭绝”。

    我同意讨论西藏问题有个很大的缺憾,没法对西藏的情况做独立的、客观的大规模调查。但是,这并不意味着就可以随意下结论。

    北京头疼的问题是,随着经济的发展,西藏社会有更多的资源投入到传统的藏传佛教中。从某种意义上来说,北京给西藏/藏区的输血,有一部分进入了这些寺庙的口袋,在某些时刻,用来反对政府。北京对此情况没有准备,哭笑不得。

     
  5. 雪红雪白

    八月 1, 2008 at 6:07 下午

    如果多看一些MAJ的言论就会看出在辞藻背后的空虚无力,基本不值一驳。我已经不会去浪费时间读他的东西了。
    更不同意他和你的结论。在西藏目前发生的就是“有意的、大规模的文化灭绝”。而且这是官方政策。
    为了不纠缠细节,可以这样想一下:这样的政策,是否有利于“统一”、有助于中国永远占有西藏呢?答案是肯定的。北京不笨,它绝不会“哭笑不得”,实行这样的有效政策,难道还需要它的对手去提醒它吗?

     

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